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标题: [讨论] Is there a 'China Discount'? [打印本页]

作者: mingminglou    时间: 2008-10-7 06:35     标题: [讨论] Is there a 'China Discount'?

Everybody is welcome to comment.

Is there a 'China Discount', in business school admissions for applicants originate from China?

a) Chinese Students usually score higher in GMAT and there may exist a quota,

b) the level of corporate governance, economic and social development, and personal integrity is generally lower in China.  

Therefore, it may require a higher GMAT score (50-100) and stronger business experince or social background to get admitted for Chinese candinates than those from advanced countries.


作者: emma-maple    时间: 2008-10-7 21:08

A)现象中国好像也有的,不知道现在好些没有。

当年我进大学的时候,高考满分750。偏偏就是北京的同学,比我们从中西部地区的考生低了100分(考题一样)。要知道100分可以有多少人在这个区间。那时候学校给每个地区的名额是固定的,录取比例不同,分数自然不同了。

所以我是很接受这个discount的,如果有的话。


作者: xianwhartons    时间: 2008-10-8 06:55

一篇关于GMAT分数的文章
以前记得有位MM贴过,现在重新看来还是觉得有些道理,同大家分享,但是仅是参考,主意要自己拿。

YOUR GMAT SCORE:   
It's sad, but it's true: your GMAT score is probably the most important factor in determining whether you will be admitted to a top business school.  I want to clarify that statement, though, so you won't misunderstand me.

Most applicants believe there is a significant difference between a 680 and a 720 on the GMAT.  There isn't.  The extra 40 points won't help your chances of being admitted.  That's why I'm frustrated when I hear from people who score 680 and insist on retaking the exam.  They would be better served by burning their GMAT-prep books and turning their attention to the application essays (the next step in the process).

If you hope to have a reasonable chance of being admitted to a top program, though, your GMAT score will need to be "in the ballpark."  If it isn't you'll have a hard time winning a spot at A-list schools no matter how good your work experience and undergraduate GPA might be.  That's why I believe GMAT score is the most important factor in being admitted to a top program.  If your score isn't in the ballpark, you won't be in the game.

So What's Considered "In the Ballpark?"

At virtually all of the top programs, the ballpark starts in the mid 600s.  That doesn't mean there is a strict cut-off -- there isn't.  But if you look closely at a school's numbers you'll see that below about 620, your chances of being admitted fall pretty dramatically.

Take a look at the graph below.  It shows the "middle 80 percent range" of GMAT scores for students admitted to a typical top MBA program.

You can see that the median score is about 680; but the median can be deceiving.  You don't need to beat it to be accepted.  It should be obvious that half of all accepted applicants score below the median, but for some reason many of my GMAT students feel they need to beat a school's median to have a reasonable shot at getting in.  I've had to talk quite a few of them into applying to MBA programs they are now attending (or have already finished) because they were initially discouraged when their GMAT scores fell slightly below their target schools' medians.

What Score Will I Need If I Hope to Attend a Top Program?

If your GMAT score is within a school's median 80 percent range, even if it's 60 points below the school's median, you have a reasonable chance of being admitted.  If it's below that 80 percent range you still have a shot, but it's a long shot.  (I'll discuss how applicants with GMAT scores below the median 80 percent range get admitted to top programs in the next section on application essays.)

Most MBA programs now print their median 80 percent ranges in their brochures.  For those that don't, you can make a rough estimate by assuming the range starts about 60 points below the median and ends about 60 points above it.  As long as you are within that range, you have a reasonable chance of being admitted.

Are the Separate Scores for Math and Verbal Important?

Yes, especially the math score.  The admissions people put a lot of emphasis on math skills when making their decisions.  (See the discussion on GPA for more on this.)  So it's important that you do well on the math portion of the GMAT.

The math and verbal scores range from 0 to about 52.  (I know that ETS claims the scale can go as high as 60, but it has never actually gone over 52).  My strongest students are those in the "40-40 Club."  That means they score in the 40's in both math and verbal. 

It's great to have that kind of balance, but if you are going to be stronger on one portion of the test than on the other, it's clearly better to be stronger in math. 

What if I Hope to Apply to Top Schools But My GMAT Score is Below 600?

You need to take the test again.  I'm not saying that you can't get into a top program -- you can.  But your chances are slim.  So if you have time to take the test again, you'd be foolish not to. 

And that brings up a good point about multiple test scores.  I'm not aware of a single top school (or even an average school for that matter) that still averages GMAT scores.  I'm sure that someone out there will find a program that does so, but until I hear from that person, let's stick to the general rule: Schools consider only your highest GMAT score.

Can I Take the Test 15 Times and Just Report My Highest Score?

Sort of.  Before the GMAT exam begins, the computer will ask you which schools you would like your scores forwarded to.  You get five schools included in the cost of the test, and any others will cost you $25 each.  
You can elect not to have your scores forwarded to any schools.  After you have seen your scores (you get them immediately after finishing the test), you can then pay $25 each to have them sent to the schools you choose.

Your "GMAT transcript" will report only your three most recent scores.  So if you took the test four times and scored 450 each time, but didn't have your scores forwarded, you could still pull off that miraculous 700 the fifth time and then send your scores.  The admissions office would see only two 450's and a 700. 

It doesn't really matter, though, whether you send your transcript after each test or wait until you score the number you want.  In the end, the school's application will ask you to specify the score you want the admissions committee to consider.  (And, no, you can't mix and match your best verbal score and your best math score from different tests.)

(By the way, two years ago the GMAT was $84 and additional score reports were $10 each.   Now it's $165 and additional score reports are $25 each.  That's a great example of what happens when a monopoly is allowed to operate.  Maybe someone in business school can come up with a way to introduce free market forces into the GMAT administration process.)

What About the Essay Score on the GMAT?

You will have to write two essays on the GMAT (the "Analytical Writing Section").  They will be scored on a scale of 1 to 6, and those points will not be added to your other GMAT score. 

The essays are extremely simple.  I teach my students a basic template to follow and they seem to do very well with it.  They regularly score perfect 6's (the 99th percentile) just by following the template.

It's been my experience, though, that your essay score is pretty much worthless, so I spend very little time on it in class.  A few years ago I asked the admissions director of a Top-5 school what she was doing with the essay scores.  She laughed at me and said she wasn't really using them (though that isn't what her brochures say). 

I have to agree with her.  The GMAT essays are ridiculous.  Given how well some students have done by just following a formula, the scores seem pretty meaningless.  And now the essays are being graded by computer, making them even more worthless.  So don't spend a lot of time studying for the AWA essays, and don't put too much emphasis on your essay score.  I can assure you the admissions committee won't.  

A Special Note:  The actual essay topics you will see on test day are disclosed in advance!  You can find a complete list of them in the current edition of The Official Guide for GMAT Review. 

Having the list tempts some people to try to write their essays ahead of time.  The pool of essay topics is so large, though, that it would be impossible to write an essay for each (and remember them all) before test day.  Your time would be better spent studying the other sections of the GMAT.


The Bottom Line On GMAT Scores 

Take the GMAT very seriously.  If you score 560 you won't be going to Wharton, and all of your excuses for not finding time to study will be little consolation.  Work hard in your course!  And if you don't like your first score, take the test again.  Keep taking it until you get the score you want.


作者: xianwhartons    时间: 2008-10-9 06:39

在对外经贸大学讲座的录音整理

  致命失误之一:就是非Top30的学校不去。

  首先,很对不起,我要给大家泼泼冷水。我从90年回国后开始做MBA留学顾问,10多年了,我咨询过的有好几千人,其中成功赴美读MBA的每年都超过百人,而这些人中能进前30名商学院的不到10个人。很多人申请了4、5年都没有成功,弄得筋疲力尽,事业家庭一个也没丰收。GMAT分数年年涨,从十年前600分都少见,到现在的780、790层出不穷。申请者的工作背景也越来越强。但是根据这两年的资料,每年从中国大陆去Top30的学生不过寥寥400人,平均每所录取不到15名。但全国申请的人一半以上都会把目光盯在Top30的学校上。中国每年的申请人数不好统计,但逐年增长是肯定的。今年保守估计在1万人以上;每人平均申请6所学校。另外还有很多已经先到美国念了个Ph.D,又打拼几年取得了绿卡,基本生活已经无忧的中国人。他们渴望得到更好的生活,首先想到的就是读个MBA!这些人很多都是清华北大毕业的,许多更是哈佛、斯坦福、麻省理工、耶鲁、普林斯顿等名校出来的。他们口语纯熟,写作过硬,再主动去学校进行面试。这帮人可谓占据了天时、地利、人和。你们看过《哈佛MBA》那本书没有,那年哈佛录取了11个中国人,绍亦波是哈佛本科加BostonConsulting工作经验、陈宇华是斯坦福本科加ATKearney、黄晶生也是斯坦福、李雯清是哥伦比亚、其他还有4个我记不清了,反正都有美国名校的学位。只有3个是从国内直接去的,他们的背景你听一听:谭海音上海交大双学士加Mckinsey,王烨也是上海交大加BostonConsulting,信跃升北京大学加天津高考第一名。你说:大学本科、GMAT、推荐信、Essays、面试,你有那一点能胜过他们?你说你是总经理、工作经验强?根本没用,现在国内的申请者都把自己的工作经验吹得天花乱坠,一开始老美还真好骗,现在人家也学乖了,根本不信你那套。美国著名企业的工作经验还好一点,国企的就是再牛也没用。你说不公平,那也没辙,因为你想去美国上学,不是去中国上学。

  有人问工作经验瞎编行不行,我的回答是现在Top30的学校几乎都要求面试,至少是电话面试。目的一是考验你的口语,二是考察你所叙述的工作经历真不真实。如果他怀疑你的诚信度,那你就是满分的GMAT也去不了。记住,美国人最重视的品质就是诚实!如果你诚实,还有希望;如果你不诚实,必定玩火自焚。我这么说是有好几个悲惨事实为根据的。

  美国好的商学院从大陆直接招生数都有一个内定名额,这可以从历年招生记录中统计出来,不同的学校差异很大。今年据我所知从国内去哈佛的还是3个,斯坦福是2个,伯克利的至今我还没听说,很有可能没有,因为去年就只去了1个,因为加州的华人太多,收的都是当地的中国人,这里我补充一句,加州的学校绝对是最难申请的,因为加州的华人最多,而现在加州的失业率又是全国最高的。去Wharton的最多,去了20多个,Wharton一直是顶级商学院中招收中国学生最多的。Kellogg是今年商业周刊的冠军,在美国名气极大,每年招走近20个。MIT今年不错,有10多个,一般都是IT行业的。芝加哥和哥伦比亚不太爱从大陆收,每年去的都不到5个,还都是金融背景。Dartmouth这几年去的人一直在增加,今年有近10个。Duke和Virginia都爱收中国人,都是10多个。纽约大学今年去了20个左右,一般也都是在银行工作的。Yale曾经很爱收中国人,不过这几年随着排名的上升,招的人数下降的很厉害,今年去了不到5个。Cornell去的不少,每年都是近20个。Michgan很古怪,收的中国人不少,但基本不从大陆收,喜欢有美国学位的,国内去的也就3、4个。卡耐基梅隆去的多,近20个,一般都有IT背景。北卡罗莱纳去的也不少,每年都有10多个。UCLA这几年排名直线下降,不过从大陆还是很难进,每年也就2、3个。南加州也很难进,也就4、5个,反正在加州的普遍都不好进。印第安那是Top20里最容易进的,每年都从国内收近30个。Emory这几年上升的最猛,比较好进,每年能去20多个。MichiganState这几年排名也猛升,好进,今年去了10多个。UT-Austin以前容易,现在不知道为什么排名一直在降,而进去反而难了,今年不到10个。Rochester的金融比几个Top10的都好,也特爱收中国人,每年20多个。Washington和NotreDame都比较好进,每年10多个。Purdue爱收有工科背景的,容易近,每年都20个左右。Vanderbilt和Maryland都好进,都20多个。Georgetown不知道为什么,一向收的中国学生很少,6、7个,反正没超过10个过。这30所商学院总共也就是招400人左右。我所说的“容易”,都是指在这Top30里相对的。从绝对角度来看,也都很不容易。因为国内的申请者实在是太多了。Top10里中国申请人最少的Dartmouth去年都有800个,其余都在1000人以上。哈佛是最多的,这个数接近2000,从中取3个,比登天还难。我可以告诉你,所有国际申请者中,中国就占了50%以上,可是在所有录取的国际申请者中,中国人不到15%,而在Top10,这个比例更低至不到10%。如果你是日本人、韩国人、香港人、台湾人,你会容易申请的多的多!甚至我敢说,柬埔寨人、缅甸人、老挝人都比中国人好申请!你们不要笑,这是件很悲哀的事情。哈佛每年录取300多名国际学生,中国大陆加上在美国申请的中国人,也就10几个,还不到所有被录取国际学生的5%,印度人都有30多个。以国内最容易进的印第安那大学来说,中国占了该校全部2500名申请者的20%,你算算有多少,500个人申请,最后去了30个。

  我认为,大家应该把选校范围放的大一些,在中国,大家都知道的也就是哈佛、斯坦福、耶鲁几所,大部分人都没听说过Dartmouth学院,更不会知道DartmouthMBA比耶鲁的还要好。我问过很多人,几乎没人知道Michigan大学和MichiganState大学谁好谁差的。我认为对于想留在美国的人来说,第一重要的是就业率。我举个例子,Rice大学在美国第四大城市休斯敦,是明星级大学,它的商学院今年平均起薪是$97,458美元,高于南加州大学的$95,213美元;其就业率94.7%也大大高于附近的UT-Austin的85.8%,这样的好学校在中国竟少有人问津。再比如,Iowa大学的平均起薪虽然只有$88,783美元,但是其就业率竟高达98.1%,而加州伯克利大学的就业率只有87%,Georgetown更是可怜的82.4%。这些都是U.S.News网上提供的数据,今年不免费提供了,我是付了美元才看到的。去年竞争的惨烈程度是美国20年来最激烈的,很多背景很强的人全军覆没,而我的一位背景很一般的朋友在我的强烈推荐下申请了Rice大学,现在他可能正在休斯敦城外美丽的海滩上享受阳光呢。所以说,大家选校的时候一定要把眼光放的长远一些,MBA的排名说明不了什么问题,不同的排名方式导致最终结果差异极大。华尔街日报今年就把Dartmouth排在榜首,哈佛仅排在第9,有人质问哈佛商学院院长howtoexplain,院长反问道那斯坦福只有第39名又该howtoexplain?

作者: xianwhartons    时间: 2008-10-9 06:39

致命失误之二:不考虑实际情况,非念MBA不可

  这里我解释一下,商学院不是只有MBA学位。MIT商学院就还提供Masterin Management of Technology学位和Masterin Engineering and Management学位,卡耐基梅隆有Masterin Information System学位,这个今年我知道有去的,非常适合理工科背景的人。还有很多申请者在国内的工作就是会计,没有过管理经验,问我怎么办。我告诉他们这种工作背景Top30几乎没戏,外企的也没用。我推荐他们念MasterinAccounting,MAcc学位。这个学位在美国是专门培养CPA的,只要一年,投资少,4万美元足矣,而MBA两年8万美元。最重要的是,全美国的MBA都不好找工作,MAcc却非常好找工作,特别是你考下美国的CPA后,几乎100%有工作。因为安然破产后,布什钦点了1000家大企业重新核查账簿,很多会计师事务所现在都忙不过来。美国CPA非常好考,每年通过率都在60%以上,不像中国都是犄角旮旯的死记硬背,通过率不到10%。

  为什么MBA不好找工作,因为MBA是很虚很宽的教育,是培养管理层的,中国人去了能直接进管理层吗?决不可能。而MAcc是很实际的东西,起薪没有MBA高,最好的是6万多美元,但贵在都能找到工作。学习一年后中国人考美国CPA基本全都1次过,我知道的念MAcc的还没有不过的,也还没有找不到工作的,这是现在去美国最好的选择。Tigtag出国咨询网,有几个长帖子专门讨论会计和MBA找工作的问题。我建议你们去看看,Tigtag上面有许多经验之谈。Macc在Michigan大学有;北卡罗莱纳也有,很多去的,他的网页上说almost100%的MAcc毕业生都找到了工作;南加州也有,现在加州可能也只有这个能找到工作了,IT是肯定没戏的,全裁员呢,我认识一个前年去南加州读MAcc的,现在进了普华永道,整天忙得不可开交,全是硅谷的公司破产清算审计,但是南加州很不好进;Top20里Indiana也有,去的很多;剩下的UT-Austin和NotreDame也有,我也知道不少去的;UIUC的会计很强,全美前3名,又离芝加哥很近,很好找工作,不过UIUC要求TSE50分,这点我到觉得很值得利用,因为你有TSE成绩,而人家没有,就没法跟你竞争了,少了很多对手;BrighamYoung不知道你们听过过没有,会计非常强;Florida大学也有,会计很不错;还有Wisconsin大学,这在美国是所名校,它除了MAcc外还提供金融、房地产管理、市场营销、人力资源管理、信息系统管理等Master学位,相关背景的人不妨一试。其他的你们去网上查查,真的很多很多。我认为MAcc既省时间又省钱,最重要的是不像MBA出来了没工作,是想留在美国的人最好的选择。理工科背景的人,不知道你们听说过MasterinFinancialEngineering没有?这是一个新的学位,申请的人还很少。以前很多念数学、物理Ph.D的中国人想转金融工作,都去先念个MBA,现在不用了,直接读FinancialEngineering就行,只要一年,跟MAcc一样,既省时间又省钱,工作没有MAcc那么好找,不过也不错,强烈推荐理工科背景的人试一试。我知道的有去伯克利和卡耐基梅隆读的。现在斯坦福、芝加哥、哥伦比亚、纽约、Cornell、Michigan、南加州还有一些我记不清了,都有这个学位了。你们多到网上查查。现在据说很好申请,因为知道的人不多。我觉得要申请就要趁早,过两年这个也火爆了,肯定就难去了。

  致命失误之三:GMAT到底有多重要

  我明确的告诉你GMAT绝对是最重要的!我看到很多人都说GMAT不重要,700分就可以申请Top10的学校,更重要的是Essays、推荐信和GPA,我告诉你他说的有道理,不过这个不适用于国内的申请者。原因很简单,国内申请者GPA作假的很多、工作经验人家早已经不信了,推荐信早就知道都是你们自己写的,找人签名而已,记住,别把老美当傻子,否则吃亏的是你自己。我去年咨询了一位女士,北大毕业进了花旗银行,做到部门经理,在纽约总部培训了一年,GMAT700,申请Top20,来找我咨询。我告诉她,你的其他方面无可挑剔,就是GMAT太低,如果重考个高分,申请Top10绝对有希望。她不听,结果去年全军覆没。今年她重考了GMAT,790,沃顿、哥伦比亚、芝加哥、纽约都录了她,最后她去了哥伦比亚。今年沃顿去了20多个,GMAT最低分770,平均785分。进Top10的平均分在750分以上,Top20的也在730分以上,700分就是进Top30也是个最低限度。你说700分有没有Top10的,有。今年就有一个去Kellogg的,就是700分,不过他是一家美国大公司的大中国区市场总监,香港和台湾都归他管,这个背景太强了。为什么GMAT这么重要?因为GMAT是唯一使你和美国人在同一个尺度上衡量的标准,也是他们唯一确信没有水分的标准。在加上他们普遍怀疑中国申请者的工作经验、推荐信和GPA,这时GMAT就更加难等可贵了。有人问TOEFL,这个我认为630即可,因为美国人自己不用考TOEFL,只是在国际申请者中比较一下。

作者: xianwhartons    时间: 2008-10-9 06:40

致命失误之四:Essays、推荐信和GPA的那个更重要

  我这里给你一个排列,重要性GMAT>Essays>推荐信>GPA。国外,Essays和推荐信的重要性都大于GMAT,为什么国内最重要的是GMAT,其次才是Essays和推荐信?说起来我觉得很悲哀,因为中国申请者缺乏诚信。中国申请者太爱编故事了。有些申请者的材料我看了都觉得吹得实在离谱,美国人怎么可能相信?沃顿今年特别雇用了一家公司检查申请者的背景,我知道的哈佛、斯坦福、哥伦比亚、芝加哥、Kellogg也已经或将要这么做了。哈佛和斯坦福录的中国学生一定会向大学和推荐人寻证,当然这是他把你列入候选名单后才做的了,如果他对你根本没兴趣,肯定不会花这种精力。我建议大家切勿胡乱吹捧自己,这样只会引起评审人的反感。要用可信的事例而不是表面的吹捧来证明自己的优秀。很多人问Essays怎么写,这个要分学校。每个学校的Essays问的都不一样,如果你都照猫画虎,写的都一样,是没有用的。你一定要针对这个学校的特点写出Essays。比如,Virginia的综合管理是和Harvard和Stanford一样优秀的,你如果说你对金融感兴趣,那你是注定要失败的。再比如,你申请Chicago,说你打算从事市场营销,那他一定会建议你不如申请同城的Kellogg。所以,认真研究每所学校的特点,有针对性的来写Essays是非常重要的。关于推荐信,比较遗憾,美国人都知道你是自己写好了找老板签个名而已,他们不太Care这个了,除非你能找到什么大牛人给你写推荐信,不过这个一般都不可能,倒也不必强求,很多没有很强推荐信的人也都去了很好的学校。至于GPA,更是已经没有用了,作假的太多了,美国人不看这个了,况且不同大学的GPA也没什么可比性,清华北大的3.0和山西煤矿学院的3.0怎么会一样呢?所以没什么用。大家都是改个3.8、3.9,或者年级前三名。我咨询过一个北航读计算机工作了几年今年去MIT的,北航的GPA是出了名的低。他来咨询的时候,告诉我GPA只有2.6,问我有没有希望。我说你尽管放心,考个GMAT高分,然后好好写Essays,GPA根本不用担心,最后MIT和卡耐基梅隆都录了他。所以我告诉你们GPA在申请MBA的时候根本就没用,老美看重的是你的GMAT和领导潜力。作假了也没用,可如果被发现了,你可能永远不能入境美国了,这可是不少人用悲痛经历得到的教训。与其自欺欺人,不如发奋考个GMAT高分,比什么都能证明你的学习能力。
作者: vivieensonger    时间: 2008-10-13 20:36

"今年沃顿去了20多个,GMAT最低分770,平均785分。"耸人听闻了




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